Today’s podcast, “Tough Talk: Conversations That Make A Difference” is the audio from a webinar presented by Tony Mayo, The Business Owner’s Executive Coach. Listen to this recording and then join us for Tuesdays with Tony at Twelve, a weekly, free webinar where you can explore powerful executive coaching tools and ask Tony about applying them in your life and career.

This program teaches Tony’s 12 Step program for engaging with people on difficult topics, simple tools for resolving contentious issues, and a powerful approach to work and personal conversations that will bring you better results and stronger relationships.

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Thanks to MusicOpen for providing public domain recordings of Beethoven.


Mostly for the benefit of the web indexing engines.

Today’s topic is conversations, one of my top topics in any case, because it’s all about what we can do with people to create the life we want for ourselves and for them. And as you may have seen in Facebook Live or in one of my speeches, I think there’s a lot of wisdom embedded in the history of our language and the word conversation has a history from no surprise two Latin words. Con, and versare. You probably know the one con because it’s the same in Spanish, which means with chili con carne de. Versare is a little more obscure that’s means to change the state of something. Used to open for door that’s open or closed. So early English when someone invited you to a conversation. You knew that they wanted to get together.

To change the state of something to make something different to open one door or close some other but we all forget that what conversations really about

It’s useful to look into go into a conversation with the intention to make something change. And I found that when I facilitate and moderate meetings for my client companies, the main thing I do is get them to actually commit to taking some action out of the conversation. They’ll discuss it long enough and generally you get this feeling that there’s sort of a consensus and people all agree on the same thing. And then they want to move to the next topic. No, no, no. The consensus is just the opening, we can get a particular person to agree to do a particular thing by a particular time. Otherwise, you end up in a situation that one prospective client said about his company around here when all is said and done, there’s more said than done.

Alright, so I can go through these 12 steps to describe them or we can try applying them is if there’s a particular conversation situation. That you’d like some help with. That’s always the best way to make use of these conversations is what’s coming up. What’s on your mind those conversations that you rehearse in the shower.

And I was once asked what’s the biggest difference in my life. Once I learned the distinctions of coaching and it was I just had fewer imaginary conversations and more and more actual, real-life conversations. The best and worst thing about having real conversations, instead of the first ones is the real conversations, people can say things I didn’t expect. Because when you’re rehearsing them. They can only behave the way you expect them to behave. And once we have a certain picture of someone and evaluation of who they are and how they react.

They’ve turned into objects, instead of human beings that can surprises that can create that can respond to what we’re doing. So getting this conversation is out of my head and into the office was a big change for me and I encourage that for everyone. So in case you’re wondering who that other participant is confidence there that I have a laptop that I joined the meeting, so I can look over there and see what you see

Okay, any particulars, we can deal with

Jane is practicing your mind today she’s communicating very well. Jess with video

Greg is the other side of the coin. He’s doing it completely with audio. Hey,

Purcell appear. Okay, good.

Anything in particular you wanted to dimension or work on today.

Not really, okay, I’m an active listener. Alright.

So the, the first step for my 12 STEP program is to get yourself centered fact I had this situation just yesterday I had talked to a client last thing on Friday and

We reached a conclusion and it just bothered me for the week, so you know that’s that’s really not the best response, I could have given him and I want to

Be a bit more intrusive, little bit more confrontational, but it wasn’t eager to do that because not only am I coaching my clients, but the clients are paying my bills.

This sometimes I naturally worried if I if I push a little harder to go a little deeper, and maybe that’ll affect my ability to pay the mortgage

Eventually always come around to being more confrontational Sri if I do best. Our best for my client, I will, I will do better, but I don’t know. We do it immediately.

And this was one case where I very carefully attended the step one of getting centered. I was reminded that luckily

While I was procrastinating by going through my email and a friend of mine who’s a great yoga and meditation teacher Jonathan Faust

Had just sent out his newsletter with a seven minute guided relaxation. Okay.

Let’s, let’s begin my preparation for the conversation I listening to that. So I sat and meditated listen to it. I thought, you know,

Didn’t quite sinking. Let’s do it again. So I heard her for another seven minutes. Breathe. Pay attention to my hands and my feet.

And so just got to myself to a center and and i think of that fairways one is your physical center where you you might balance and Jane, I know you’re very aware of where your center is because you do so many physical things with your, your pole training.

But also to get myself mentally intellectually centered. I wasn’t committed to any particular response from the client. I wasn’t tied to any particular thing I had to say I was right in the middle.

So that however they respond I can move with it sort of bend like a young tree in the wind. Instead of

That Stifel tree that gets blown over by the width. So in that sense, I was centered on attached to any outcome, other than having a good conversation. So that’s step number one and I have a link from Step number one to some centering

Recordings and instructions on my website.

The next step was to make sure the other person is willing to talk. Just because I’m centered and ready for the conversation doesn’t mean the other people or persons in the conversation will be

And I’ve codify that as well. And the conversation contract which is something we’ll, we’ll go into more detail.

On another one of our calls and Jane, I think you were in the room and I described that it wrote public speaking as well that

Idea of making an agreement with the person, starting with what outcomes we both want well

You can’t be to detail with that because of course that’s the purpose of the conversations determine the outcome, you’re going to have

But the outcome could be as simple as, let’s be clear on what our next steps are. OK. So I’m going to have a conversation about getting clear

Let’s have a conversation. So we know whether we’re going ahead or not. So you can agree that you want that kind of resolution at the end of the conversation.

The second part of the conversation contractors. Now that we agreed on what outcome we want, what do we need to do that. Who needs to be here, is there information we need to bring in budgets do need to wait till the books close

Do we have to pull out the contract usually not a good sign. But sometimes you want to both have contract available. So the second part is, is what resources are best for the conversation.

And then the, the third part is how long is this conversation going to take. When do we start when do we finish that second part is one of those most often left out.

That people are saying, Oh, we had a conversation about this, it’ll be you. Me and the CFO and will do it at 130

Well, how long is it going to take, we just discussed our objective and what’s involved. Sure. I’m pretty idea how long is going to take

One of the reasons that thanks to for reluctant to go into difficult conversations is they don’t know how long they’re going to absorb

So we come up with saw our best guess when it can’t be for sure, but let’s agree to start with, Hey, we spend five minutes on this topic. Sure.

When you get towards that end of that five minutes. You got to revisit say, should we now agreed another 10 minutes, great to another time realize it’s too difficult to we don’t have the resources.

Particularly for salespeople folks are reluctant to talk to a salesperson because they don’t know when they’re going to get out of the conversation.

It’s so powerful in a sales or persuasive persuading conversation when you get towards the end of the agreed time to say I want to be respectful of your precious time

We’re at the end of the five minutes. What would like to do next. Shall we take another 10 to wrap up, or should we schedule another time.

So far, so good. Any, any thoughts, questions, concerns about this.

I think that’s the one thing that that you taught me of like back at https grad is about the respect for time. So whenever I’m having the sales conversations that has really been so supportive and actually

Prizes. The other person on the other line when I say, you know,

We’re coming to the end of the agreed agreed upon time would you like to speak more or at a later date it surprises people

It’s sort of the opposite of the classic sales personal the foot in the door where the car salesperson gets your licensing your keys so you can go for test drive. But then those keys disappear. We have an extra 1015 minutes with you.

And that’s one of the guidelines that David Sandler, who I studied sales training with 20 years ago.

use us as basis, he said. He said, Let me find out all the things that irritate people by salesman. I’ll do the opposite. See how that goes pretty well. And that’s become the dominant approach to sales in the year sense

Okay. Step three is to help the other person feel safe and that’s primarily to do with the relationship. And if you’re correcting an employee.

It can be useful to let them know that you’re happy with their work and you want them to be successful at the company you expect they will be successfully. Okay, now I can make a minor correction. I’m not fighting for my life here.

in personal relationships. This is particularly powerful

To remind people that he at the ends of the conversation still going to love each other. We’re still going to be married. I’m still going to pay your college tuition video editor.

Things people have you’re worried about in the in the relationship. Let them know that this conversation is inside the relationship. Not something determining whether or not you’re going to have a relationship.

And that’s, you can just take a second to state that explicitly. Hey. Hello, Dr. Bob Welcome aboard, can you hear us okay

I’m sorry I was out unfortunately meeting with an insurance agent and just got home, so I’m sorry I’m late. Wow, that’s, that’s

I’m really flattered that you’d sides need with an insurance agents that have been here.


Bob, I put a document in the chat window if you see that and

We’re going through my 12 STEP program for having that the more difficult confrontational conversations in our life. Okay, cool.

Clicking on chat.


So that you get yourself centered user conversation contractor. So you both agree on what you’re trying to accomplish in broad terms, and how long it’s going to take

And then reassure the other person that the relationship is not the topic that you’re trying to build on the relationship you want to solve this within the boundaries of high related to each other.

Step four is a as soon as I said, I think you’re recognized as a place, a lot of conversations go south, particularly in the public sphere.

And that is, let’s focus on the facts first everyone’s entitled to entertain you know it’s entitled to their own information to throw on facts.

So let’s get clear about that and businesses. This can be the most time consuming part of it. In fact, a friend of mine who’s a partner at a big consulting firm.

What is major thing is helping companies get information that matches so many so often, people are grabbing information from the corporate database.

Massaging and XL and walking into a meeting thinking they have the facts. Someone else pulled information into their personal Excel spreadsheet.

Manipulated updated a product in and they don’t match and things go south pretty quickly. So he’s telling them better systems for these big companies for everyone to have the same spreadsheets. At the same time, Excel is a powerful tool but cuts both ways.

And if there are some dispute about the facts. Well then let’s resolve those in as some of you may have heard me to discuss in other contexts and we’ll go into this in a

Future episode of this and that is the difference between facts and opinions their different things. Both have value but you handle them different ways.

The key thing about facts in this context is a fact is something that you and I can quickly agree on a process for verifying whether it is true or not.

And if I and I have a video on this. I’ll put the link into the notes on the site later on. But how you can distinguish faction opinion. So let’s get our facts, Grant. How to verify them and get clear about it.


This can be easy to slide into opinion and I put some of my favorite examples in this handout said saying the client reported several misspellings in your report that’s a fact saying you work as sloppy is an opinion.

Now maybe you valid opinion, maybe a useful opinion, but it’s a lot easier for someone to start disputing your opinions based on their worldview and there are other impressions attracts the fact that the

Client told you there were several misspellings, that’s something you can work with in you’ll often find that you’ll start with an opinion opinions are very motivating.

And but they’re also fairly personal. It takes several steps to get from the opinion down to what’s the factual basis of it.

Just doing that before you go into a meeting can go a long way and having it go better see clean these when you’re trying to correct someone or bring someone back into line with your requirements are expectations.

may start with opinion visit. What’s that opinion based on going through this process, getting from opinions down to the underlying facts is called grounding. I love that word because it gets down to solid foundations grounding an opinion.

Questions, comments so far.

Are you thinking of any particular conversations or confrontations that you might want some specific feedback on

Our press on it doesn’t take much to keep me talking.

Sorry, I was muted. Yeah.

Very good point about political conversations. These days, people are starting with wildly disparate sets of facts and even even getting to agreement on that can be extremely difficult, depending on where people what people’s news sources.

may never get beyond

Especially since I think a lot of opinions are being

Put forward as facts. Yes.

And some facts are being portrayed as opinion.

I think there’s a concerted effort.

Circles these days.

That are trying to undermine our confidence that any facts available.

Don’t get into politics.

But maybe in trying to talk to your friends about politics. You try to get, get some facts and she’d advocate at the facts. You can agree on. There’s not much point having that conversation.

Unless you’re just interested in hearing each others opinions and there’s value there just want to know when you’re dealing with an opinion. And that was a fact because I care what people’s opinions are. It doesn’t mean it’s going to change mine.

All right. Step five. Seek first to understand then to be understood. Just one of the Covey’s seven Habits of Highly successful people

And it’s such a powerful thing to listen before you speak, I was describing this in a seminar once

And my wife sort of setup. It says, Oh yeah, that’s something you always do should have realized

Sometimes, call me even with some really good news, something great. That happened at work and you start by asking me where I am.

What I’m doing what I’m up to next. And I think of this is sort of clearing the space in their heads.

People all of us have this conversation going on in our head all the time, we’re thinking about this, considering that were made for her sing a conversation

Then someone calls or walks in. I’m in the middle of my movie. I’m not ready to hear about your movie get up to speed on what’s in my head.

I had one teacher who referred to this as the mental. So sometimes you can’t get all that out of people’s heads before there’s any room for what you had to say. He even did this once in a way that

Made me very uncomfortable. I had closed my biggest opportunity with a company

I was going to for the first time, build this consulting firm a sales force up until then. As with many consulting firms, the individual professionals.

Brought in the business. So they was going to be some resistance to shifting to a sales force, especially in sales forces cost money before they pay off.

So the stipulation with the client was I’ll only do this if we get buy in from all the employees.

At all employee meeting I mentioned this to my boss and he said, Would you like me to come out and do that meeting for you. I thought, sure. I mean, you’re much more experienced

You do it. Plus, I’m off the hook. If we lose the deal at the boss lost the deal.

So he started the meeting by describing what was proposed for creating a sales force. He said, Now tell me all the reasons you would not want to have a Salesforce. What could go wrong.

What is he thinking, well, what he’s supposed to be convincing them to go with the Salesforce and for a good 20 minutes seemed like an hour or two.

He filled easel pads with Tara reasons he didn’t discuss them he did dispute to me just recorded this. Is this accurate. Yes, this is that what about. Is there anything else. One of the reasons you have any hung them up.

And he looked at these. And he said, well, that’s quite a list of reasons not to do it. Why on earth would you even consider doing this.

And the same people started saying things like, well, have more time for delivery. If I’m not doing so much sales will have more revenue. So we can spend more time getting ourselves trained. We can hire a bed of

The same people came up the reasons for doing it at the end. He’s just so casually looked at all the papers.

Says, Well, what do I do now.

Is it. Well, I guess we should go ahead and they did.

The mental gang it all out. We understood it, we booked the week we validated. So yeah, I can understand why you would feel that way. That’s not a green it’s I understand why you would feel that way you get the head of that opinion.

No argument, just getting clearing the space. So first, to understand then be understood asking questions to clarify in this handout. I’ve got a link to

Wait, to ask more questions to find these things out in repeating things back. So every now and then someone will post on social media philosopher Daniel Dennis guide to disagreeing with someone in the key thing I see in that is he says until you can

Recycle recite your opponent’s argument back to them accurately so accurately that they say, not only is that a good

Listing of my argument you may have made my argument more strongly than I have.

Only then, do you have the right to start giving counterpoints counter evidence and so on, because it makes people feel more validated more real that you’ve heard them.

People mostly want to be heard that you hear nothing else today phrase. I’m not supposed to say, according to our trainer at HP, yes.

But if you give people the chance to be heard. It has a huge impact mostly we’re not heard most of our communications in today’s culture is one way were absorbed, we get from the media.

So to have to be understood and listen to is a tremendous gift.

And people will reward us when we let them know we’ve truly heard

So my step that was that the stick it six this take responsibility for your own reactions.

And we have opinions we have reactions. There are things we may not like, but that’s us. That is what we brought to the table, our opinions, our values, our worries.

Don’t blame the other person for that. This gets to one of the foundation bits of coaching in marital relations, which is to make statements.

If you find yourself saying you made me feel this way realized that doesn’t actually make much sense. Don’t can make you feel emotionally a picky particular way. Now, when you do X, I noticed that I feel this way is very different.

Now we’re yet. I’m telling you that I noticed I have a reaction. I don’t know whether you intended me to have that reaction or not.

I’m not sure you did that particular thing. So let’s verify those fats. Now I’m taking responsibility for my response, you can be angry. You can be resentful. You can be loving you can be warm.

But those are all things that are going on over here in the more I can take responsibility for it, the better we can work with those reactions.

So it’s not blaming as a person for making us uncomfortable or feeling suppressed. Let’s just deal with the fact that that’s where we actually had to something I did and we can make a request that they do something different.

All right. Number seven, establish a level of trust. Again, I have an article about this. We could talk about on a future call, but when we see that trust is absent or just communication is absent, we can start looking at trust I

At when I first did an offsite for a corporation for group of executives, I called a friend of mine who done many of these. I said, what advice can you give me

And he said, many people want to hire you to do a strategic planning retreat companies feel like a Chevy strategic plan to hear that is done at a retreat. That’s what were they hired you for

And he responds away and I now respond, which is, I’m happy to do that. But if I find people can’t talk about strategy in a useful way.

I’m going to talk about alignment, do we agree on the same thing. So we have similar values and goals.

And if people don’t talk about their values and their goals and align on them, then I have to talk about safety.

What is it about this group that people can’t speak honestly about their values and their goals. I had one off site that was very badly. And finally, digging and digging what turned out, was everyone there thought thing with the only competent executive in the room.

They were not going to be a team on that basis, but so there’s no point in developing strategic plans for group of people who just don’t trust each other.

So that’s, those are among the components of trust sincerity capacity competence consistency in care. Yeah, sincerity, are they telling you the truth is what they think match what they say capacity, can they actually do it. Do they have the skills to they have the time.

Do they have the competence and

They carried through and get that kind of thing done.

Even with all that maybe they’re not consistent. We’ve all worked with people and maybe you live with people who can do some things wonderfully one time and then it’s a shambles. The next. Well, you have to be careful what you trust them to do.

And finally, the care doesn’t match up with their values do they care.

We want something done. Well, we say be careful. Take care.

Take care. So when we notice that things just aren’t lining up you can look at the various components of trust. We may have some components of trust, but not all of them and we can have a conversation about what’s missing.

And again, there’s a, there’s a link in this handout to an article about trust.

Thoughts concerns issues so far.

For us on

Number eight explicitly agree in the shared commitment or the values

Find some bedrock that you can build the conversation up on

This one really came home to me literally once

On the way back from some social engagement with my wife. I had something that was not totally positive to say about speaker thing my wife had said or done. I don’t remember what it was at the time.

But I wouldn’t let go of it. And finally, she said, you know, if you have so many complaints about me. Why do you stay married to me anyway and did the classic go in the bathroom or close the door.

Happy too happy to admit that hasn’t happened to many times. So it made a big impression on me and I still didn’t I was pretty well and dealt with this point.

Standing my position being right about my opinion and I want. Yes, that’s a good, that’s a good question. Why, why do I stay married me

And I kept thinking, well, it’s not that not as if I went, oh hi knocked on the door, get a little conversation contract. Can we talk Yes sky opened the door, yes.

Said I stayed married to you because I care about your future. I want your life to go well. And I want to be part of

That was the foundation commitment we could both agree on that. There are lots of things we have different opinions on

What we could agree that we want what’s best for each other. You don’t want to contribute to each other’s future

Nana company, there should be things we can agree on. If not why we working together. So get down to that foundation and you can build up from there.

Again, we’re having a conversation within a relationship.

On top of some solid commitments, there’s a lot of room in there to disagree to be creative, to try things that don’t work to celebrate and to look back and try to fix things.

But if you don’t have that kind of safe container with us solid commitments and a relationship. It’s going to outlast the disagreement, then people won’t do the the hard things

All right. Number nine point out what you see as missing or not working.

This is where a lot of conversations start, you know, trying to Step nine. And I’ve just now brought up the problem.

Because we’ve built a container which now we can be hard on the issue, but still easy on the people

Who wants to relationship last we want the problem to go away.

But people confuse the problem with your relationship. I mean, how many times have you been reluctant to bring something up. Because we didn’t want to upset the person we don’t want to take the risk

But if we know we’re safe within shared commitments in an ongoing relationship.

You can talk about almost anything. And that’s one of my guiding principles, I think there is a way to say almost anything almost anybody in a way that works for everybody.

But it takes some work to find that way. And here’s how we can do the work. Alright, now that we’ve got the the problem on the table. Step 10 explore and create together possible action to move closer to the circumstances, consistent with the shared shared value.

To actually open up and be creative. Maybe give up on your own pet solution. And it’s does that through my way or the highway. I want to get get somewhere maybe the side roads are going to be better.

And then once you’ve got this clarity make requests and promises. Again, this is a huge topic we’ll talk about powerful requests, how to use and manage promises their fundamental ways of communicating it, but unless you get down to

A particular thing that’s going to be done by particular person that particular time. You haven’t really resolved it

It could be an ongoing practice, it could be a one time event. It could be a just a particular result that’s going to have it could be calendar time taking away, but it’s going to be specific, or you’re throwing away a lot of the work you’re done, get up to that point.

Even better established a structure of accountability for monitoring these actions, how we’re going to follow up, you know, classic and business meetings.

Is to finish each business meeting with reciting the action items. Yeah. Sally is going to have this report forced by the next meeting. Joe was going to talk to the vendor and get an answer to this specification question you bring it to the next week.

That’s how you finish the meetings with that accountability. That’s how you start your next meeting is okay. Sally ever get that report great done

Joe did you add that meeting with the vendor, what was the response. Okay, good. So now we have that. And if it’s not done. Let’s talk about that. Let’s have a difficult conversation.

This culture of accountability and again I have articles on this is one of the things that makes organizations perform well. And interestingly, it’s a way to get rid of poor performers

I noticed. Maybe you have to the many people say accountability when what they really mean is punishment. You know we did more accountability and so organization, meaning we need more punishment.

But that’s not really going to get the results you want becomes a cat and mouse game with the punishment.

When I say accountability. I mean, accounting, just like the bookkeeping. You don’t blame the accountant for the results. You just want accurate results. So the effects you can work on

And that’s how you want to work with accountability with coworkers and other people that you interact with just show them.

This was supposed to be having by this date that it happened or not. And then we can deal with the reality of it. So Joe doesn’t have is actually an incomplete.

What do you do that. And again, I’ve got a video on this, we could discuss how to deal with that, but

The point is you are dealing with it. There’s not just being slid away so yeah job miss that one again, I don’t want to bring it up.

And what happens is you don’t have to fire poor performers, because very few people other than the the oddball a sociopath will stay in environment, whether you’re continually being reminded that the not keeping your promises.

It’s just unpleasant. We don’t have to punish. We don’t have the chastise it just continually you said you would do this, it hasn’t been done said you do this hasn’t been done.

Eventually they find some place where they can hide out because there’s plenty of places to hide. Not many organizations operate at a high level of accountability.

Now the final thing I’ll say about these 12 steps is that they are roughly in sequence. If you’re having trouble making progress on one backup.

And look at the other one I mean right from the very beginning. If you find that you can’t get a conversation contract gone into this person with a agree.

On some outcome with you and to put the resources and time into it, make this cuz you’re not centered, it’s because you’re too much up leaning into your position are grasping onto a particular outcome and maybe you need to call break

Step away for half an hour 20 minutes to to breathe exercise do something else. Maybe you need a day to sleep on it. Come back to it and I’m more centered way.

Maybe if you find you. You can’t listen as in step five, you want to step back a little bit and make clear that you want to be listening for facts as distinct from opinions.

So at any point in the process. If you find that it’s not working well. I think it’s wise mature to step up so you know what I want to

Call a pause in this conversation. I want to move back a couple of steps. And this has happened several times were conversations seem to be going off the rails getting this upset and confusion. It’s like, wait a minute.

I wanted to quit. The reason I’m having this conversation is because I want us to work together, together better

I want you to be able to perform up to capacity. I want to be able to rely on you and we’re just trying to work on this particular issue within that context sounds we can kiss keep backing up

Well my friends. Those are the 12 steps for today ventures hear your comments applications questions, concerns.

Everyone is muted Kish try to open your mouth. How to unmute yourself first.

I thought that was very interesting. Tony, I’d never really thought of a process to make a conversation to go better I’d always sort of had to wing it.

Doing some of these things.

Almost organically. Oh, you don’t do this backup of it. This is gives a very nice way of thinking about it in order, as opposed to waiting so that that’s very helpful. Thank you. Yeah.

And with a group that works with each other on a continual basis if everyone has this list if it’s even easier.

Once was in a meeting where my assistant jumped in and said, I know I don’t think we set a solid contract for this meeting. Maybe we should back up and do that. And I was like, oh yeah, she’s right. Let’s do that.

But by calling out the ground rules, everybody has the right to point out the ground rules doesn’t seniority and someone goes out the window because you’ve agreed this the way we’re going to do it. Yeah.

And I’m just

No, I don’t do corporate work. But for instance, would you in a meeting actually going with here. The 12 steps we need to follow or to just be in your head. Well,

They know these are the ground rules. Yep.

Yep, particularly with an offsite I’ll coverage and to generate ground rules and show this as part of examples. And people do jump in.

Some interesting stories where there’s one in particular where the lowest ranking person in the room.

jumped in and rescued that the number two guy in the company because he was going down a dark alley having gotten one of the steps. He said, Chuck, what about this one. Oh yeah, if we just resolve that this would be, but she’s here. I’m going to show it from. Oh, I see the Greg has himself.


I was just gonna say, You know, I’m reminded that a lot of conversations are really

You know, one party just wants to sit down and unload on the other party like I just want to tell you something. I want you know you to do X, it’s not a. It’s not a conversation. It’s a, it’s, it’s a one way, you know, output.

And and

That this Seems kind of obvious now but it feels like that’s a recipe that not accomplish you know something meaningful.

And sometimes it can be a trap. It’s going to assist that you do this, knowing that you’re probably won’t or that you’ll rebel and create the argument that I’m actually trying to have

Was also a covenant Greg and how beautifully as close match the background.

Island there, Greg. Thank you. I appreciate that.

It’s completely unintentional, but I’ll take credit for it anyway.

Great, it just all works together very well.

Since you brought it up about what he said on the ceiling. I cannot figure out what that object is over your other shoulder. Oh, it’s

It’s actually a

I’m going to bring it close. It’s a very

Bob’s got over there you go to photograph or do something on your ceiling, Greg. What is that, yeah.

What that is

This is a photograph by a very famous photographer named Mary Ellen mark of Edgar Bergen Charlie mccarthy away in his box and it captures a very


To have them. And this is actually an original sign photograph from Mary Ellen mark. So I got some might be background and ventriloquism I’ve always loved this picture. And so I got a copy of that I keep it behind me. That’s

So see, putting him in the box or taking while he’s putting it in. How can you tell

I’ll tell you that.

Because I first became aware of this picture when I was reading Candace Bergen’s autobiography, she was. We all know can asparagus Edgar Bergen’s daughter.

And she was describing a David Mary Ellen Mark spent with them.

And she wrote in the book. And I remember her taking a picture of my father tenderly putting Charlie away and then there’s a little image that that picture.

In the book. So that’s how I know the otherwise. Otherwise you wouldn’t know it. And interestingly enough on Mary Ellen Mark’s website. The photograph is listed as Edgar Bergen taking Charlie, out of the box.

Heard remember the way Candice Bergen

Saw the picture taken. That’s so cool.

Hey, Jane been thrilled to hear about all your big successes that you’re having is

Wrong. Yeah.

Greg, what’s over your core your shoulder. I

You know, I don’t know. It’s some kind of


accoutrement. I’m not sure. Maybe dampen sound.

Maybe it’s art. It’s a space shuttle. I don’t know.

Well alright, that’s the material for today. Thank you for coming by.

Tony when everybody goes, kind of chat with you for just a moment. Sure.

Hi, everybody. Thanks, Tony, Tony.

Thank you very much. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Right to see you, Jane by cheers

Hey, I wanted to thank you books around